Curse

generaldave · Sep 16, 2008, 06:06 AM // 06:06

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage and that's exactly what the first two builds were designed to do. As previously mentioned, they were from long ago. The second two are designed to take a beating and pack a good punch. I fail to realize how being able to take damage as a warrior is not doing my part in the team. I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game. You call these skills selfish. I call them helpful in my role as a damage taking profession. I should be somewhat self sufficient so a monk can heal someone else and not be too worried about me, if they have to. This is far from selfish.

As for flail and Zaishen Challenges, I will consider getting flail to replace Tiger. It's definitely a better IAS. Like I said before, I used what I had available. I'm at least attempting to be like everyone else, still keeping my own small touch of style. I'm only using one skill devoted to healing as opposed to 5, like the wammo I used to run. 6 out of my 8 skills are damaging, which is what everyone wants from a warrior now.

tmakinen · Sep 16, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker

Um ... that sounds like a classic case of bad tanking, unless you mean good as in 'after seeing my leet skills and having major lulz monsters studiously ignored me and massacred my squishy team mates instead'. Seriously, how about bringing SY! and being actually useful for your team?

Speaking as somebody who doesn't need wiki to find efficient builds, your problem is on a tactical level. GW is not designed the way most other slash&magic games are and you're trying to accomplish something that is strictly suboptimal. You may get away with it on initial stages of PvE but by the time you hit Hard Mode the flaws will become quite apparent. Team is the basic unit in GW and different professions bring their own particular value to the team. As a warrior, you are most valuable to your team when you're delivering hurt. You must reflect the efficiency of your build against that of the entire party - leave soloing to farmers.

**Marty Silverblade** · Sep 16, 2008, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage and that's exactly what the first two builds were designed to do. As previously mentioned, they were from long ago. The second two are designed to take a beating and pack a good punch. I fail to realize how being able to take damage as a warrior is not doing my part in the team. I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game. You call these skills selfish. I call them helpful in my role as a damage taking profession. I should be somewhat self sufficient so a monk can heal someone else and not be too worried about me, if they have to. This is far from selfish.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Warriors are automatically tanks no matter what but it's best that you lose it asap. Holding aggro = good, wasting time, attributes, and skills on tanking is bad. You can do scary amounts of damage, so do it.

EDIT: ["Save Yourselves" (Luxon)] is basically compressing those entire tanking bars into one skill that fits into other, more useful bars.

Rick Thene · Sep 16, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Marty got it out right.
Warriors have their high armour and shields. There's no need for tanking skills, especially on a character who can do some much damage. Now, I agree that the frontliners holding aggro is a good thing, but its even better when they can actually kill the monsters and protect their party by pumping out SY! and creating mounds of corpses.

Picuso · Sep 16, 2008, 07:24 AM // 07:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage and that's exactly what the first two builds were designed to do. As previously mentioned, they were from long ago. The second two are designed to take a beating and pack a good punch. I fail to realize how being able to take damage as a warrior is not doing my part in the team. I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game. You call these skills selfish. I call them helpful in my role as a damage taking profession. I should be somewhat self sufficient so a monk can heal someone else and not be too worried about me, if they have to. This is far from selfish.

Let's see if I can explain myself...

In GW, there isn't "aggro control", as in a lot of others MMORPG. IA choses the "easier" foe. So you will charge to the mob, tank them some seconds, and as soon as the rest of your team charge to kill the mob, IA will change his target to squishier foes (Monks, Mesmers, Elementalists...).

So, yeah, you will be tanking, but just a couple of seconds. And with SoA and PS you will be surviving enough to recieve the first spike. After that, your team will be in problems in some areas. So you will want to kill/damage all you can before the IA ignores you, so the Elementalist/Mesmer/Ranger, or another midliner, can kill those foes.

So you maybe need to think like: Kill Faster = Less Foes = Less Danger to Team = Less need of Protection / Healing = Less job (and energy burning) to your Monks.

We know that you are getting fun with those build. But you can get fun too with other builds (As Perma-KD with Earth Shaker, or Eviscerate Axe, or w/e), and you will be doing big yellow numbers too.

P.S.: WTB English >_<

_Nihilist_ · Sep 16, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

generaldave,

First, good post. Some people might not think so, but thinking for onesself, asking questions, and comparing answers shows that you are more than just a Wiki-copy-paste buildsetter, but instead is someone who has the capability and the desire to do a little bit of work on your own rather than just follow a trend. It's admirable, and even if you were running the exact same Wiki-copy-paste build as someone else, it would mean that in one of my PuGs you would be the one taken more often than the other guy.

That being said, GW has changed quite a bit since Prophecies, and a lot more since you've been gone in the last year. With easy access to efficient builds on Wiki, most players having multiple toons they want to get leveled and reasonably playable, and the Hall of Monuments to be filled in Eye of the North, most players these days go for efficiency above all else. This does not mean that you cannot, or are not allowed, to try different things, it just means that when you go to join a PuG instead of starting one, you are going to be dealing with people who want skillbars pinged and who don't care what you think, they'll boot you without a second thought to your feelings on the matter if you aren't running an 'accepted' build.

Your choices are easy: either start a PuG and call the shots, H/H it, or be ready to bring the skillbar that your PuG Leader requests you bring. Honestly, it's just the way that GW is today.

In response to your original post:

Tanking

Not many people Tank anymore because there are so many options other than Tank 'N' Spank, many of which are more effective. Tanking skills are seen as selfish in part because many PuGs don't understand the concept of Tanking. They follow your aggro too closely, or they believe that their awesome, accepted Wiki-copy-paste skillbar grants them 100% damage immunity, or once aggro does break they don't understand how to assist the Tank in picking that aggro back up.

Tanking is seen as selfish because on a Tanking bar, relatively few of your skills deal damage. GW is all about Hard Mode (HM) these days, where your physicals (Assassins, Dervishes, Rangers, Warriors) provide steady high damage and your target mobs have increased Armor, HP, and damage. As a Warrior, you have the best passive Tanking capability vs. Physical Damage. Many of the damage sources are Elemental, Armor-ignoring, and Lifesteal, which go straight through your AL bonus vs. Physical, or straight through your armor period.

If you are devoting more than 1 or at most 2 skills to utility (1 if self, 2 if team), you simply aren't dealing enough damage for the PuG to want to take you. Your *team* should be built to provide you with more than enough Healing, Prot, and utility to take care of you - as the big, strong Warrior you should be in the thick of the mess, kicking ass and taking names. Any skills that you bring along that aren't damage skills are going to either a) be better used by someone else or b) made fun of. That, again, is unfortunately how GW seems to have evolved, with a few rare exceptions.

Tanking *can* be useful. A Warrior *should* Tank as much damage as possible while dealing as much damage as possible and still being mobile and able to divert enemy attention from the team's midline and backline. Strict Tanking, taking as much aggro as possible and holding that aggro, can be a tough task, and bringing a skillbar full of nothing but self-defense/Tanking stances/buffs drastically reduces what the Warrior is capable of doing on the damage end. A good Warrior doesn't *rely* on Tanking to get his/her job done, they Tank when possible, but rely more on their naturally high armor against physical damage rather than a skillbar full of tricks to do so. The way that GW mob AI picks out targets almost always ensures that Warriors are chosen LAST out of all players. You can't Tank if you can't force the enemy to aggro on you, and if the AI is going to prioritize you at the bottom of the target list, you are going to spend far too much time trying to establish/hold aggro rather than putting your weapon in a mob's face so that by merit of whooping its ass you allow others on your team to perform their jobs with as little interference as possible.

^
That's a text wall... didn't intend for it to end up that... lengthy... XD

On your questions about your Scythe Warrior build, the skills that people are questioning are the 10e cost skills. Even if you have [[Warrior's [email protected]] up, 10e cost skills are going to deplete you sooner than later. I like the AoE snare thought with the [[Grenth's Fingers]+[[Pious Assault] combo, but it would be much more efficient in the hands of a Dervish primary.

To finish up, from your last post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

I fail to realize how being able to take damage as a warrior is not doing my part in the team. I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game. You call these skills selfish. I call them helpful in my role as a damage taking profession. I should be somewhat self sufficient so a monk can heal someone else and not be too worried about me, if they have to. This is far from selfish.

First and foremost, taking damage is not anyone's role in the team unless you are running a specific team build that requires a Tank or designated target. Obsidian Flesh Tanks are the perfect example of this. The build requires the Warrior/Ele to move in ahead of the team for just long enough to establish and hold aggro before the team runs in and drops Hell on the mobs. This build cannot hold up indefinitely, as many, MANY problems can occur if aggro should break, or if ANY of the enchantments used by the Warrior get interrupted, the least of which being that the Warrior moves as though they are in tar, and can't bodyblock or retake aggro at all. Not to mention, Obsidian Flesh Tanks take forever to get anywhere with reduced movement speed.

Second, as I stated before, your high AL should help in keeping most damage to you minimal in the first place. Anything else will be covered by the Prots that your support team should be sending your way, and the Heals that your support team will be giving you.

Third, self-sufficiency isn't as big a deal as it has been made out to be, unless you are solo farming. You don't have a Res on most of the bars that you posted. It does your team no good if you Tank through everything while everyone else dies and then you're caught with a Warrior who has no support, and you can't Res anyone (unless you are right next to a Zone Portal). Team player > Self-sufficient build any time you are in a team situation. If you find yourself saying that your build is self-sufficient, take another look at it to make sure that your skills cover what your team can't; even if it shanks your self-sufficiency your team will be better off in the long run, which makes for a more enjoyable game.

^
2nd wall of text... on to the closer... XD

If you don't feel like sharing builds, don't do it. No one can force you to. But you can't force a PuG leader to accept you running the build that *you* want vs. the build that *the PuG leader* wants. Pay attention to requests of your team, and fill them the best that you can. Don't be afraid to substitute skills, just let the team know you are doing so, it helps them to better work with you, and above your profession in GW, helping other players out is key to getting ahead no matter what Area/Mission you are attempting!

Hope the massive walls of Text helped!

~ Nihilist

Lykan · Sep 16, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage ....

Wrong. So wrong.

You need to read this.
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3484

And yes it does apply to pve too.

Just a snip...

Quote:

Goals as a warrior.

#1. Kill stuff.
#2. Kill stuff.
#3. Kill stuff!

If you hadn't already noticed, I'm emphasizing the number one goal of a warrior above. Kill stuff.
.....
Do big damage!

Quote:

I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game.

Being the last one alive does no make you good, it means the monks used all their energy healing because things didnt die quick enough. The quicker stuff dies the less pressure there is on the monks.

Lita · Sep 16, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage and that's exactly what the first two builds were designed to do. As previously mentioned, they were from long ago. The second two are designed to take a beating and pack a good punch. I fail to realize how being able to take damage as a warrior is not doing my part in the team. I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game. You call these skills selfish. I call them helpful in my role as a damage taking profession. I should be somewhat self sufficient so a monk can heal someone else and not be too worried about me, if they have to. This is far from selfish.

As for flail and Zaishen Challenges, I will consider getting flail to replace Tiger. It's definitely a better IAS. Like I said before, I used what I had available. I'm at least attempting to be like everyone else, still keeping my own small touch of style. I'm only using one skill devoted to healing as opposed to 5, like the wammo I used to run. 6 out of my 8 skills are damaging, which is what everyone wants from a warrior now.

I find it very selfish, the monks waste energy healing other ppl when the monsters should be dead already. A monk could do more than 1 spell than that bar imo.I love being hit by 10 enemies with SoA on me, taking 0 damage and still doing 150-300 dmg a hit/crit with my scythe. Heres the point, when i lose aggro, they are already dead or its the last 1-2 enemies remaining!

No, Tanking is not the purpose of warriors in every game, not by a long shot.

I dont remember the last time i had more than 4 skills that were damaging tbh

There is some great healing for warrior called vampiric hilt, try it sometime!

_Nihilist_ · Sep 16, 2008, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lita

There is some great healing for warrior called vampiric hilt, try it sometime!

Vampiric weapon mods aren't used to heal, as the life gain is barely stronger than the degen they cause, Vamps are used for the extra armor-ignoring damage.

A Leprechaun · Sep 16, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

I typically found myself the last one standing because I was a damn good tank/damage taker, which is the intended purpose of a warrior in any game.

If you are the last alive then it is obvious that the enemies are attacking your other team members rather than you, how is this good? And how does this benefit your team?
I don't know how you haven't got this yet, a warrior's job is to do damage. I don't see how you think that you know more about the game than all of us do. You are not meant to waste skills slots tanking.

~A Leprechaun~

Damian979 · Sep 16, 2008, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldave

As a warrior, my job in the team is to take damage

Noone's "job" is to take damage, that is just a side effect of things attacking you. Things attack far less when they are dead. Make them dead.

byteme! · Sep 16, 2008, 04:26 PM // 16:26

@op How is it remotely possible for you not to understand what everyone is teaching you? I mean "everyone" literally.

generaldave · Sep 16, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Thank you to the few people who actually explained what's going on in Guild Wars, instead of just warriors kill and that's that. This last doesn't do anything for my knowledge, other than say that everyone in this game is an exact replica of someone else. Everyone is boring robots. Now, that things have been explained, I understand a bit more about the dynamics of the game and the idea behind the kill bar. The only issue that I still have is that Save Yourselves is still gotten through PVP, which I find to be incredibly boring and pretty much refuse to do.

As for the warriors and tanking, it came straight from guildwars.com's description of the warrior profession. Your link to teamquitter is someone's opinion on the way things should run, which may or may not be better than the opinion of the makers of the game. I'm not saying either way, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Special thanks to Tyrael for actually breaking everything down for me. I just have one question for you: You signed your post, Nihilsit. Did you ever play Fiesta?

generaldave · Sep 16, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

@byteme, hardly anyone taught anything. They did not explain anything. They just kept saying your job is to kill. What do you think that teaches? Where is the lesson?

generaldave · Sep 16, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

@Lita, if you actually looked at my current builds, I am using a vampiric mod. Thanks for being a jerk about it tho.

byteme! · Sep 16, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

You didnt learn anything yet? There is a link a few posts up explaining the basics of a Warrior. Too bad you are a slow learner.

FlamingMetroid · Sep 16, 2008, 05:11 PM // 17:11

PROTIP: if Anet says something, its probably wrong; warriors are not tanks whose main goal are to take damage. Warriors can take plenty of damage, but because of how agro works in GW, Tanks are useless. Its always more efficient to just bring skills that help you hurt things.

Damian979 · Sep 16, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Ok, as far as teaching how to play effectively, people can suggest what to do and when but experience is the only way to learn.

As far as the builds, PvXwiki has those and that will save you a great deal of time wasted through trial and error. They are rated by actual people using them in actual gameplay to see what actually works.

You could ask for tips on what equipment would be ideal, but you haven't done that.

The only thing left is the concept which has been told in spades. The breakdown is: having someone who's sole purpose is to stand there and get beat up is useless if everything is dead. And if you have no sufficient way to kill anything then being the last one alive doesn't mean a thing. At that point, all the monsters are already aggroed and focused on killing you so kiting to res someone isn't an option.

The average life span of any mob you encounter should be about 10 sec. in nm and 15 sec in hm. Even a henchie monk can keep a team up for 15 sec.

generaldave · Sep 16, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Byteme, I have learned something from the people that actually had a lesson, not just said you suck, your builds are terrible, warriors are strictly for damage. That does not teach anything. Tyrael broke everything down and actually explained things. There is much more learning involved there. I am actually not a slow learner at all. I do just fine when there is information to learn. As for the link, it has nothing to do with what I was looking for an explanation for. Most people are stating their opinions and not actual facts. This is why I have thanked the few people that actually taught me something and I completely understand why tanking is useless now. I still don't understand why a little self sufficiency is a waste. One out of 7 skills on the team bar is dedicated to healing me. Where's the hurt in that. All of my other skills conform to what everyone wants. The only problem, like I keep saying, is that I don't have Save Yourselves. I don't own the skill and completely hate PVP.

Damian979 · Sep 16, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

[save yourselves] is for the benefit of all the other party members. Even if you had the skill (which can be acquired through faction farming i.e. no PvP required) you don't gain the armor bonus.

Self sufficiency and survivability are two different things though. Self sufficient means you don't need the team to be there. Survivability can be just something as simple as [shield stance][healing signet]